I had a chance to talk candidly with Rob Chadwick, Director of Education and Training for USCCA/Delta Defense. We talked about their new non-lethal training programs, an exciting new set of classes that opens up opportunities for students as well as instructors.
Portions of this interview have been edited for clarity and readability.
Petrolino: Today we’re talking with Rob Chadwick, he is the director of education and training at Delta Defense and the USCCA. I’m going to be talking with Rob about a really cool program that they announced a little over a month ago, I think, almost,two months ago, maybe. Rob, how you doing this morning?
Chadwick: It’s great to be here. Really appreciate the opportunity.
Petrolino: You and I got a chance to meet at SHOT Show during the industry breakfast that USCCA and Delta Defense hosts annually for the New Product Showcase. And the New Product Showcase wasn’t the only new thing that was being discussed at the breakfast. Why don’t you talk a little bit about what you guys unveiled that morning at SHOT Show?
Chadwick: I appreciate that. Yeah, we’re really excited to have just sort of begun the rollout of the new USCCA non-lethal weapons program. And what that will encompass is a, both an instructor certification, so you can be certified on teaching these non-lethal weapons platforms, which I’ll get into in a minute, and then also, of course, end-user classes.
It’s way more than just go to the store and buy a can of pepper spray. Or buy a Taser or buy a Byrna. And so anytime you have to use a defensive weapon, whether it’s a firearm or literally anything, you want to have had practice with it. You want to feel comfortable with it, be proficient with it, have confidence in your ability to use it. We wanted to provide this for our members and for the general public as well. Just a place to go and get some very solid fundamental training on how to protect yourself, literally in any environment.
What we did was partner with what I believe are the four biggest names in the non-lethal industry.
Taser Self-defense. Taser energy weapons, Sabre pepper sprays, Byrna non-lethal launchers and ASP. Three of those four, I personally carried as a law enforcement officer when I was on the street years ago–I was a policeman. Then I retired from the FBI a couple years ago. But I personally carried ASP products, Sabre products and Taser products. Now Byrna, of course, has come onto the scene much later than I did my policing. But lots of people are interested in these different options, and we really wanted to give them an opportunity or a place to go to get that training. How to use these things effectively, understand the limitations, understand the use cases for each.
Partnering with these manufacturers, directly with the companies themselves, we got from them their master instructor level schools. They brought [them] to Delta headquarters. I put my training cadre through that, and now we have developed our own USCCA non-lethal weapons instructor certification, and that is just starting to roll out literally as we speak this week.
We just finished our training counselor certification two weeks ago, and our regional training managers are going to be working with our official partners, our instructors out there, to get instructors certified in this program so that they can teach one of four or all four blocks; the Taser, the Byrna, the Sabre and the ASP.
ASP makes a really neat little product called The Defender, and it’s almost like a Kubotan, mini Kubotan that also has [an] internal pepper spray, which I think is a great combination.
One of the early hesitations that some of our–my fellow employees even had–was, “Why are we talking about non-lethal options? You’re the United States Concealed Carry Association and USCCA.” What we want to do is empower people wherever they are along their self-defense journey. You may have people who have never touched a gun, maybe don’t ever want to touch a gun, and that’s okay. They still want some tools, some means to protect themselves.
There are plenty of people like myself who are extremely confident and very comfortable carrying a firearm, but there are those non-permissive environments. There’s still places, as a retired FBI agent, that I can’t go with a firearm legally. Of course, we always encourage people to follow the law, but I want some type of means to defend myself. I want to know that I have a tool that has been literally battle proven, and that I have taken the training and I understand how to use it. What it’ll do? What it won’t do, that sort of thing. And learn directly, so to speak, from the horse’s mouth, right from these manufacturers, which are now our partners in this program.
Petrolino: To your point about there being maybe a reluctance to bring less than lethal or non-lethal options into the fold when we talk about these force escalation concepts, even the USCCA [firearm] training covers this. Is it appropriate to draw on somebody that isn’t that kind of threat? But, would it be appropriate to hit him with some pepper spray or even a defensive flashlight?
I know that’s not something we’re talking about today, but concept wise, let’s ask ourselves, “What is appropriate when? What’s that force escalation supposed to be?” The main objective here is safeguarding our safety and our loved ones’ safety. To go off of what you said, there’s also reluctance with some of the population that says, “Okay, I want nothing to do with lethal. So these options, I think, are really great.”
I had an opportunity to manipulate the Byrna a little bit at Industry Day. And it’s a, you know what I was, impressed by it. Because at that distance where we were shooting at the steel, I mean, I’m on target with that. If you’re using this inside the home, for sure, that distance that you want to clear, you’re going to be able to do that with a Byrna, at least, I think so, for the most part.
Then what other options do you guys teach for folks to deploy these weapons? I think it’s a very good thing. Now, part of the partnership you guys also engaged in, is there a purchase program as well? If I’m going to take a module from you, let’s talk about that.
Chadwick: You hit on a very important point there, John. And let me, let me preface all of this with, I do appreciate the writings you do specifically defending–advocating for [the] Second Amendment. And of course, the Second Amendment is one of the most cherished gifts that we have as Americans, and when the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. There are many people who have heard that phrase before, and in many cases, that hammer is just not the appropriate tool for the time.
We want to give everybody a wide range of options and tools and the ability to get trained up on those tools for different situations in different environments. I appreciate you asking that.
And yes, each of those partners, Taser, Byrna, ASP and Sabre, will be providing the opportunity for our instructors–when they go through this course, they will actually get the opportunity to act as their own affiliate marketer for these products.
As the head of education and training, I’m also responsible for 8,000 plus instructors out there. I was an instructor before I ever joined the USCCA. I came to the USCCA through the instructor program. When I retired from the FBI, I wanted to continue teaching. I retired as the head of the tactical training program at Quantico, and I didn’t want to take those skills into retirement, then go mix paint. I wanted to put those skills to work. I needed a credential. I got certified by the USCCA. Really enjoyed that, and so I can appreciate that street level man or woman who is running their business out of their garage just trying to make a small business work. They’re always looking for that edge or that extra revenue stream.
What we did was work with these partners to allow these instructors to get certified. Get a really substantial discount on these tools from each of them or all of them that the instructor himself or herself will be able to choose, “You know, what I want to teach, Taser and Sabre or Byrna and or all four.” They will then invest in their kit so that they can then, of course, demonstrate, and then also have the ability to sell directly to their student at a discounted rate. The student gets a discounted rate, the instructor gets a nice little percentage of that sale.
USCCA has no interest in being involved in that–making money off of that. That’s not our mission. Our mission is to equip our instructors and help our communities feel safer and understand how they can feel safer by protecting themselves with whatever weapons they choose. We just want them to be responsible, confident, and competent users of those.
Petrolino Is this set up going to be similar to, if you’re a defensive firearm instructor at USCCA, you could teach this class, and then you could also teach the little side quest mini-modules? Is there one big, “Hey, this is an eight hour class”? How does this all flesh out? Because I like that it’s compartmentalized. It sounds like it is, but is there also the, “Okay, here’s your full non-lethal, less than lethal program”?
Chadwick: What we wanted to do was give the end user instructor–that person who is actually engaging with the public, the maximum amount of flexibility and customization for their business, for their program. We are going to teach them four modules. Those four modules will consist of basically an eight hour day. If you wanted to teach all four–and of course, with any non-lethal there’s always overlap–that eight-hour day will teach you how to use all four of those weapon systems.
You can then break that down and say, “You know what it’s Tuesday evening, I’m going to teach a Sabre pepper spray class in my garage or in the VFW hall.” One of the beauties of these non-lethal weapons is you don’t have to have access to a live-fire range. We want to give these people these opportunities to do this training in virtually any environment. You [can] go out in somebody’s side yard, weather permitting. And understand how to use these. Whether it’s an inert can, a pepper spray, or a Taser cartridge–into a practice target.
We wanted to expand not only the offerings, but the environments. One of the biggest, I won’t say, complaints, but challenges that I hear from my instructors is lack of access to a range. Ranges are extremely expensive to operate, and those that own those ranges are usually reluctant to let maybe a competitor instructor come on and use that. Now, you could work out a business arrangement. But again, the margins on instruction are pretty thin, as you know, and so we want to just offer other ways for these business people to develop their clientele, get them comfortable. Maybe this is that gateway, right?
“Hey, you know what, you’ve never taken a firearms class, and maybe it’s a little intimidating. So maybe come in and take [one].” I know John, you’re an instructor, take a class with me, pepper spray. Super low level. They get comfortable with you as the instructor. They understand that you’re not some Tackleberry guy that’s going to be super intimidating. Now you develop that relationship with your potential client. They now feel comfortable. You have the opportunity to make that sale. “Hey, you know what, if and when you’re ready, I can help you with understanding how to use–whether it’s a pistol or a shotgun or whatever,” it’s that ease of entry into this business that we’re really trying to help our instructors with.
Petrolino: One module, let’s say we wanted to do the pepper spray, and I’m only using that as an example because it’s probably going to be one of the more popular at launch. So how long is a class if we wanted to do a pepper spray we’ll say module? How long would that take?
Chadwick: Depending on your style. You as the instructor, you will get access to our slide deck, our videos, our e-learning, so that you have your clients actually go on and do a really well done e-learning ahead of time. You can maximize your time in class. I would say, effectively, anywhere from 90 minutes to maybe two hours would be a pretty good introduction.
Getting these people hands on [experience], actually deploying the weapon in a couple of [our] drills. We have scenarios that we recommend for the instructors, they understand how to facilitate these little modules.
Really proud of the way the team has put this together. I think it’s going to be really well received.
Again, [we’re] directly supported by the manufacturers themselves. We are now the official training provider for all of those companies, which is really an honor for the USCCA.
I would say anywhere from, on the short end an hour, I think you’re really flying through the material at that point. Anywhere to maybe two hours, two and a half hours, depending on the level of proficiency and comfort of your client[s] and how big the class is.
Petrolino: Well, I think this is going to open up more opportunities. And like you said, it’s about access, so you don’t have to go to a range. But this is going to open up the door for instructors to go to the local dojo and say, “Hey, how about we pair up and we do some less than lethal classes, maybe for parents or for whoever’s interested?” Then you could do it there. You could do it at a community center. You could do it with women’s organizations and men’s clubs. Like you said, the VFW. Now you’ve opened up the door, “Let’s check out the local Lodge, the Knights of Columbus.”
This is, again, it’s not a firearm related thing. This is a self-defense thing. You kind of took a question out of my mouth where I was going to say about the gateway. I do think that just self-defense and thinking about the stuff conceptually leads to, at minimum, being aware of it and being sentient of the concepts. I think that alone, even from a political standpoint, is important. So very cool.
Do you have a book yet? Do you have something like that put together? Is there a USCCA manual on less than lethal? Because you guys have phenomenal literature.
Chadwick: Our publishing team does an amazing job. You know, the “Concealed Carry Magazine,” which our members get, is just an outstanding resource. We have the online blog, we chose for speed of delivery.
On this one, we chose to not have, at least at this point, a hard copy manual. To keep the cost down. Everything has a cost. And so [we will] if and when it becomes necessary, or, makes sense to have a hard copy manual.
We do have electronic manuals, of course, which the instructors can print out. We’re noticing that most people are just accessing stuff on their phones. We’re just trying to meet the customer where they are and the instructor where they are as well. So no hard copy books at this point. Everything is online. The videos will be online.
The thing that I want to emphasize too, for those [who are] maybe those skeptics, or people still a little suspicious of my motivations, make no mistake, at the end of the day, the firearm is the ultimate home defense, self-defense weapon. It is the great equalizer. It is the tool that really levels the playing field amongst those who are very strong, powerful, trained, and those who maybe just don’t have that physical strength, or combative whatever. It is that firearm [that] gives you the opportunity. Now it is the ultimate tool. And of course, the consequences are tremendous.
We want to give people these options, these sort of mid-range options. As a police officer, I had the pepper spray and the baton and the Taser before. Now, not every case I had to go through that entire escalation, right? Not every case it was appropriate. But, I will say, in 30 years of law enforcement, both on the street as a police officer in special operations and then as an FBI SWAT operator–I was a sniper and [had] plenty of firearms training and proficiency–I never once actually had to, thank God, shoot someone. Plenty of times, draw the weapon, use the weapon, but never had to, you know, fortunately, shoot somebody. I was around several of them, and I can assure you that it is a terrible thing to be part of.
Anyone who fantasizes about wanting to be involved in an actual shooting, I can tell you, almost certainly has never done that and the Hollywoodization, the romanticism, it’s kind of really too bad. The fantasy is far from reality, and so people’s lives are shattered. Even in the best case scenario, where you have a perfectly justifiable legal shooting or self-defense. It doesn’t even have to be shooting. Pepper spray somebody you’re almost certainly going to have a law enforcement interaction, could very well end up in an arrest. Could end up in prosecution. Which is why, of course, the USCCA is here. But you know that is a life altering scenario for so many people that most never even consider it.
Most people think, well, I’m going to go to this store, I’m going to buy a gun, and now I’m protected. That couldn’t be further. That’s a great first step, but it couldn’t be further from the truth.
Petrolino: This is super exciting. So when can people expect to see–because I looked at the schedule, I see some less than lethal, maybe a little under a dozen states have little pockets–When can we expect to see a more firm roll out?
Chadwick: Today is March the 12th, and our team just got certified two weeks ago, and now they’re back in their regions. We have regional training managers. Those regional training managers are going to start hosting these instructor certification courses at bricks and mortar ranges, usually at official partner ranges of the USCCA.
If you go to the USCCA website. The first thing you can do is [click] find training near me, and enter your zip code. It will list out a whole litany of classes. I believe there’s an option to be able to toggle the type of training you’re looking for. Those classes should start getting added to our training platform here. Very, very shortly.
I would say start looking for classes in your area on or about June 1. That’s probably because we’re still working with the manufacturers to get the kits built and the pricing. We just wanted to roll this out and get it rolling so that we can meet customer demand, which I hope, I believe, is going to be very high, and hit the ground running.
On or about June 1, I would say, is a pretty good date to start looking for. Please don’t blow up my email inbox when it’s not there…
Petrolino: “Where’s my training?”
Chadwick: This summer, I promise you will have opportunities. And my hope is that we can build this instructor network quickly to meet that end user customer demand.
Petrolino: For the existing USCCA instructors that are out there, the program that they’re going to have to go through is pretty much similar to what everyone else is? Or is there a more truncated version? How’s that going to work? Because I know the training goes over a lot of presentation skills as well as the material. How’s that going to work for existing instructors?
Chadwick: It’s a whole new–it’s four new platforms. It’s all new material. The class itself will be, I believe, almost certain, it’s a two day class where you come in and get certified. There involves teach backs. We want to make sure that you are a proficient instructor in this new material.
There really is no truncated version of it for an existing instructor, you got to go through it. There will be some e-learning involved on the front end, to maximize your time with that training counselor, so that you do get time to ask questions, time to hone your craft, make sure that you are presenting well.
We’re in the middle of a massive overhaul of the instructor program for the USCCA. I’m really excited to roll that out. Maybe we can talk about that at a later date. Really investing in what it means to be a USCCA instructor and providing much more in depth training and hands on experience in classroom management. Adult learning, presentation skills, all the things that really go into making a good presenter, which, candidly, I was an instructor. Had I not been an accomplished, proficient, experienced instructor when I got to the course? I don’t know that the USCCA course that I went through would have made me a really solid instructor. It made an experienced instructor a better instructor.
What I want to do is actually provide a foundational experience for those who maybe have never taught before, but had that passion and want to do it. We want to give them a deeper dive before they ever get an in-class, in person experience.
We got a lot of exciting things coming down the pike, with some really credentialed people putting that program together. So excited to talk about that too at some point.
Petrolino: Rob, I definitely appreciate your time this morning to chat. Before we get off is there anything else that you wanted to plug real quick? Or we’ll talk at a later date about some of those other things as they develop?
Chadwick: You know, I just appreciate your advocacy of the group, the Second Amendment space, those people that cherish the Second Amendment and understand the importance of it. Obviously, that’s why I’m here with the USCCA. I found this organization to be a true champion of that, our rights to defend ourselves, and that tool, specifically. I would just encourage people to get involved. Don’t take your rights for granted, no matter [what]. It doesn’t have to be the USCCA. There are plenty of organizations out there that advocate, do good work. But the most disappointing thing to me is to see a citizen who just takes these rights for granted, as if they’ll always be there and no one will ever interfere with them, and they always have been there that couldn’t be further from the truth. Most countries on this planet do not afford their citizens the freedoms and therefore the security that we have and enjoy in America.
Petrolino: Perfect, Rob, where can everyone find USCCA, plug all of your socials and everything. Let’s get everybody connected with you.
Chadwick: Yeah, best place to start is USCCA.com that’s our website. And then we have a really robust YouTube platform. So if you go on to YouTube and just Google the USCCA, we have content being added literally daily, lots of free stuff there.
I believe there’s a free sort of starter account on USCCA for membership. And then I would encourage people to explore those levels of membership, and what comes with that.
I will tell you, for me personally, the peace of mind knowing that I was covered by an organization as large as the USCCA, with a network of attorneys as expansive and experienced as the USCCA is–and looking at all of the previous member testimonials that they have up there on the website, talking about real world examples of where else a person just like you, just like me, never imagined that it would actually happen to them. But it did, and that suddenly they’re caught up in the cross hairs of the legal justice system that I was part of for 30 years. Knowing when I left Quantico for the last time, I no longer had those protections, and I was on my own. Joining the USCCA was one of the moves that brought me true peace of mind, and I would encourage people to do their research.
Petrolino: Well, the one thing that I’ll add to that is, if you’re interested, and you get a little taste of the free stuff that’s online, if you want a very small commitment to get some more of USCCA, you can get the magazine subscription, and you don’t have to be a member. So you can subscribe to that magazine, if you want to jump on that for a year. It’s pretty affordable, and I think there’s 10 issues a year. I’m not really sure how many come out, but it’s an impressive magazine. That’s another way to look into USCCA if you don’t want to dive completely in.
Rob, thank you so much for your time today, and have a great afternoon.
Chadwick: John, appreciate the opportunity. Look forward to talking again.